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Debemur Morti Productions news
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Barghest



Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 601
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexyorkalive wrote:

in this instance it's not the case that the person doing the work is getting paid, not exactly. If 20 people submit designs only 1 of them will get paid. the other 19 won't get anything. At all.

That's certainly the impression I got from the original post, and that would be a shit thing to expect people to do... BUT:


Void wrote:

We obviously accept sketches since we know it takes time to work on such designs.

Void, I think if you mentioned that more specifically in your post, you might get more people interested - because what you wrote does not make it obvious that 'sketches' is all you're expecting from people who want to try and win the project.

I do hope you'll be lucky and find someone with enough time to spare to deliver this project to the standard you're hoping for. But bear in mind that each one of the requirements you've asked for seriously narrows down the number of people who could deliver it:

- "have the talent and the creativity" to give you "a complete graphics makeover" that "will instil a deeply mystical yet professionally looking aura." (i.e. .someone with a high level of artistic talent)

- "Someone with a 'new'/'alternative' vision that we may not have in terms of web-design" (someone who's not only artistic enough to design something really special and different, but also experienced enough in what is possible/tricky/impossible to do in web design, so that the design they come up with can feasibly be built within the constraints of HTML, web browser capabailities, etc.)

- "share our conception of Art and Music" (i.e. someone who appreciates the kind of music you release, and the kind of aesthetics that go with the genre)

- "to put your skills to use" (i.e. currently has a lot of spare time)

- experienced enough in project planning, design and website programming to give you "a new website (comprising integrated webshop); the graphics used therein will be exported to forge a brand new aesthetic identity" (to have a chance of success, this really should be handled the other way around, and as two separate projects - brand identity, then website design & build)

- design and build a site "Featuring AT LEAST all the current content (www.debemur-morti.com / www.eitrin.com)"

- experienced enough to build a site "based on PrestaShop exclusively" (the designer/developer must have a working knowledge of configuring this specific e-commerce software and building the front-end design around it - or be willing to find even more spare time to learn how to set up and customise Prestashop)

- work for a smaller budget than you would have otherwise offered (because you "got ripped off by another guy who was working on the design" and "it cut our budget down").

That's a long list of VERY specific requirements!!
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rthdx wrote:
Wow, a WAR! Razz

Don't want to take any sides, since it's Voids holy right to wish to get the job done for him on whatever conditions he would like to imagine, as well as mr. photographer has an equal right for a butthurt, since the offer is rather lower than actual market costs for this sort of work. But anyway, the question of curiosity is for latter: what concrete sum won't offend you for the work of this scale?


If we pretend that none of this "discussion" had happened and I didn't know who was at the end of the dealings, 500 EUR would be just about acceptable if it was a *direct commission* to me, not a competition, the design was for 1 typical page only, no HTML, just images and text, in vector form where possible, with the full fee payable on completion of the work on the sole condition that it's provided as promised, when promised, and if it took no longer than a couple of days to produce at the most. The design would then have to be passed to a 3rd party to cut up and do whatever with to make it work within a site.

Or if the client wanted me to actually make the content usable and actually make a *site* and not just a design of one, with a webstore and future update guarantee with bugfixing etc. I would expect more like £2500 or more.

And all this with a proper contract and 50% up front (for the full site), with a clause for extra fee for design development beyond an agreed deadline.

What Void should have done, here, was simply open up a standard "competition" to explicitly newbie designers, approached a SPECIFIC group of them, asked them to pitch their idea with a VERY basic sketch and a costing and terms, and then pick from that and commission them to produce the actual design or site or both, for a proper fee (obviously less than my example previously because these are newbies).

But as Barghest has pointed out the actual real requirements by Void are WAY WAY above this level. They are requirements only a professional could meet.

You can't walk into a trendy pub in centre of town, ask for a glass of their best Shiraz and demand only to pay 50 cents for it. Or, as the case may be, approach 50 pubs, ask them to actually POUR YOU A GLASS of their best Shiraz, sample them all, then pay 50 cents for the one you like the most and throw the rest in the sink.
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13



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1907
Location: Nidaros

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people have too much spare time, jeez.

For the record; Void is doing a great fucking job with his label, and I have done deals with him from the early beginning and I have never, ever experienced him being nothing but honest.
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Haunt In The Dark



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 907
Location: Trve De Baal

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note to self:

NEVER deal with alexyorkalive and his meta sense of entitlement.
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexyorkalive wrote:

Can you imagine him being professional, polite and honourable in person when it comes to business? Reputation means a lot in this world.



I have dealt with him a lot in the past as a customer and he was nothing but professional I never had any problems at all with him and I have never heard of anyone that has.
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Xeniteia



Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1441
Location: Rhône Valley, France

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haunt In The Dark wrote:
Note to self:

NEVER deal with alexyorkalive and his meta sense of entitlement.


I don't know who this Alex is, yet he never pretended to create the first Black-Metal label in France ten years after Osmose, SPK or Drakkar began...
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Last edited by Xeniteia on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rthdx



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 1381
Location: Korolev, Russia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Shiru



Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 1804
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what a butthurt and how many posts since morning...

There is tons of companies making such contest... or bands, like make design for shirt, and winner will get money... and no one ask no one to participate in it. So what is the point

rthdx wrote:
alexyorkalive wrote:
And pay them a proper fucking fee.

Dude, I've provided link to price list. Minimal complectation store http://procodings.com/price/cms/ is starting from 780 Euro (that's programming only). Wink

Actually you speak about real company, that probable have office, secretary, and clients with big budget... though some of those mentioned earlier things, can be missed.. But as i know(it is based on experience of few people who worked in this field), Russia is one of highest wage countries in case of IT-Freelance.

and i understand even less alexyorkalive butthurt, who behaves like person who got already employed and already ripped off....

I would say that offered prices are completely ok, for some reasons i cannot participate in content (it is requires drawing/art skills that i dont have at all), otherwise i would try i guess.. at least i wouldnt feel underpaid. Cause basicly work is: creating design, making valid html from that, making template for CMS, customizing some particular webshop CMS.. and moving content...

if you go to any freelace websites, you can get it cheaper, though you might probably deal with communcations problems and some related things and so on... but you can get work done, and pay much less, and i think thats it... only reasons why pricy companies are surving is that there is always people who ready to pay other many times higher prices for being available on all working days, have same working time as client, and speak same language.... so..
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Haintic



Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see how this is different to bands sending in demos to any label in the hope to get signed. Most undertake a lot of hard work for nothing in return....the ones that do get signed probably get less than a cent an hour at the absolute most in real terms for the time that gets put into making/writing music. The people that do make a little money are the web designers, artists, producers etc. Getting 500 Euros for a piece of work in this industry is a luxury that most would dream of. A few folks make a little money but 95% of the people involved in this 'scene' I would would guess do this for kicks and pride and that's how things roll. Don't expect to get the market rate for what you do in underground metal is would I would take away from this.
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The_Elite



Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2714
Location: London

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

13 wrote:
Some people have too much spare time, jeez.

For the record; Void is doing a great fucking job with his label, and I have done deals with him from the early beginning and I have never, ever experienced him being nothing but honest.


this.

Alexyorkalive... wow. Laughing
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darkdescentrecords



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 2758

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to get into all this mess but it seems to me it's real simple. If what they are offering isn't reasonable, they won't get many (if any) offers or submissions. Certainly this would be an indicator that their offer is too low. Really, I don't see an issue...no one is being made to deliver these goods for this price.

My less than two cents. Please carry on.
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kvist



Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Elite wrote:
13 wrote:
Some people have too much spare time, jeez.

For the record; Void is doing a great fucking job with his label, and I have done deals with him from the early beginning and I have never, ever experienced him being nothing but honest.


this.

Alexyorkalive... wow. Laughing


No one said Void is not honest, we are talking about other things that are not so "beautiful", it's like someone says "reserved for you" and two hours later "no sorry I've sold out everything" Mr. 13 or don't answer to the emails (of orders), when you think to be the best label or a "respected label" there are some minor problems that could appear. Everyone posted here is honest, not everyone posted here has the same attitude.
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13



Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1907
Location: Nidaros

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kvist wrote:
No one said Void is not honest, we are talking about other things that are not so "beautiful", it's like someone says "reserved for you" and two hours later "no sorry I've sold out everything" Mr. 13 or don't answer to the emails (of orders), when you think to be the best label or a "respected label" there are some minor problems that could appear. Everyone posted here is honest, not everyone posted here has the same attitude.


It was mentioned that Void might not even pay if someone contributed. That is just total bullshit.

And what about me? I answer every single order I get, and if a fuckup happens, I do my best to make up for it. Sometimes shit happens when a one-man show gets bombarded by hundreds of mails in one day from all over the world. Give me one little hint to who you are and what I did, and I will tell you and everybody here what happened.
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Dodens Grav



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1601

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure anybody that enters a contest that the victor of which is decided on based on the quality of the entry already understands that some work is to be put in without any guarantee of payment. I don't think a mock-up sketch of a website is an unreasonable amount of work to be expected without guarantee of compensation. And anybody that enters the competition that wouldn't be satisfied with the payment already specified is a retard anyway. If the payment is too low for you, then the competition is not for you. And if nobody enters the competition because the price is too low, then Void needs to find an alternative solution. Nobody is being duped or fucked, everything is laid out upfront. You either agree to the terms or you don't.
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DTBRex



Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 3223
Location: Arktogäa

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no dealings with Void or his label, but for the antichrists' sake let this man go about his own business the way he does deem it proper!

It's not as if he's been ripping off anyone; he clearly said what he's expecting and what the other party can expect to receive in return. So, just take it or leave it! Rolling Eyes
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