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Debemur Morti Productions news
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Void



Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexyorkalive wrote:

That doesn't make any sense at all. You either realise that or you don't. Either way is unimpressive.

You've done almost nothing to address most of the issues/criticisms/concerns I've raised.


I answered but since you disagree with what was expressed, you consider them invalid.
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Void wrote:
alexyorkalive wrote:

That doesn't make any sense at all. You either realise that or you don't. Either way is unimpressive.

You've done almost nothing to address most of the issues/criticisms/concerns I've raised.


I answered but since you disagree with what was expressed, you consider them invalid.


You answered all the easy questions and none of the hard ones. And the easy ones you gave answers along the lines of "you're calling me names", which doesn't actually deal with the criticisms in any way. And some of your other answers just raised more questions. Fact is, you didn't think this competition through properly.

Maybe you should move into politics.
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Mikael



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1900

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is exactly what usually happens on mixing/recording-forums, some people think someone else is doing the work too cheap or someone is looking a mixer with too low budget. Usually it's because some people are doing it as a real job and that for expect higher price for the job and another one is just doing it as a hobby besides his real job. An ok money for amateurs are usually shitty payment for professionals, so two worlds collide, it's all about who's doing the work, pro or amateur.
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astralvesl



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's amazing that someone feels compelled to be this much of a douche about a contest prize. I'd pm a mod and ask to have his posts on the matter deleted, the contest doesn't even have its own thread and this kid felt the need to make a thread talking shit about it. If you don't like it don't enter, end of story. No one cares what you think is an appropriate price for the OPTIONAL services rendered, let people make their own decisions. The contest doesn't warrant an analysis of the economics behind web design.
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kvist



Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astralvesl wrote:
It's amazing that someone feels compelled to be this much of a douche about a contest prize. I'd pm a mod and ask to have his posts on the matter deleted, the contest doesn't even have its own thread and this kid felt the need to make a thread talking shit about it. If you don't like it don't enter, end of story. No one cares what you think is an appropriate price for the OPTIONAL services rendered, let people make their own decisions. The contest doesn't warrant an analysis of the economics behind web design.


On the other hand we are on an open forum, a forum of black metal mainly and it's quite strange to see discussion about a "web contest" Embarassed
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eighthplague
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own web contest:
The person who can most vividly and accurately describe the previous bitchfest in this thread will receive:
1. Three "Laughing"s
2. A link to a funny picture of a cat.
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astralvesl wrote:
It's amazing that someone feels compelled to be this much of a douche about a contest prize. I'd pm a mod and ask to have his posts on the matter deleted, the contest doesn't even have its own thread and this kid felt the need to make a thread talking shit about it. If you don't like it don't enter, end of story. No one cares what you think is an appropriate price for the OPTIONAL services rendered, let people make their own decisions. The contest doesn't warrant an analysis of the economics behind web design.


I care about the web design and graphic design industries because I have friends and colleagues within it and I used to do it myself until fairly recently. I care that we're in a recession and it's extremely hard for good, skilled people to pay the bills or for newbies to get a foot in the door (without being taken advantage of like this).

The services are optional but the implications of the competition do have an impact on everyone else who is trying to make a living doing this, or break into it. Even if the impact is small initially.

It's no different than bands and labels constantly complaining about diminishing income from record sales. We don't usually turn around and tell them to get over it, we tend to want to support them so our favourite bands and labels survive through hard times.

This is simply a topic you have no interest in, which is fine. But I do, and I'm sure a few others might too. If you don't give a fuck about something don't assume nobody else does either. This is a "discussion forum" after all...
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astralvesl



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So no one can hold a contest for services rendered, which could otherwise be performed professionally, unless the prize is similar to the going rate of the service if rendered professionally? Give me a break, a contest award doesn't affect the web design market. You could argue that it may affect the metal community's web design market but that would be foolish based on your premise since a skilled designer wouldn't limit himself to metal sites. If you want to make anti capitalist arguments this isn't the place and that's not the way.
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astralvesl wrote:
So no one can hold a contest for services rendered, which could otherwise be performed professionally, unless the prize is similar to the going rate of the service if rendered professionally? Give me a break, a contest award doesn't affect the web design market. You could argue that it may affect the metal community's web design market but that would be foolish based on your premise since a skilled designer wouldn't limit himself to metal sites. If you want to make anti capitalist arguments this isn't the place and that's not the way.


Anti-capitalist? I'm not anti-capitalist in any way. This is, as you allude, about "fairness". This isn't about allowing people to compete and pitch against eachother for work. It's about offering a way-below-the-going-rate fee for work that will benefit an apparently professional outfit.

And, no. It's not acceptable to demand that your contestants all do the work BEFORE they've been commissioned. It's just not ok. If someone foolishly wants to offer their services with NO commission/contract involved on the slight off-chance that they'll "win" and be asked to then finish it off for NO EXTRA COST they deserve whatever problems they will face as a result.

Of course web-design in the metal world affects web-design across the industry. Of course it does. Like you said, no web desiger ONLY designs for metal clients. The fact is that this is not some tiny simple website with a couple of quick images on the front and some text links. It's a proper website for a sizeable outfit with a webstore and a full catalogue to incorporate.

The fee is not acceptable for the brief. The risks are massive. Working for free is bullshit. Pitch your ideas along with your price, against your competitors, and "win" this way, so long as there is a guarantee of a proper fee for the actual production of the content at the end of it. That would be fine and happens every day. But that's not what's being asked here.
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moonan



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 837

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexyorkalive wrote:

I care that we're in a recession and it's extremely hard for good, skilled people to pay the bills or for newbies to get a foot in the door (without being taken advantage of like this).



In fairness almost every type of skilled profession is like that nowadays especially for newly qualified people I finished a 5 year university degree 2 years ago and haven't been able to get a job in the field I studied because the only jobs out there are from employers who want people to work for nothing in order to gain experience.

At least in this case the person is actually getting paid something.
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astralvesl



Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anti capitalist in the sense that you're saying its unacceptable for a company to offer a lower price than the going professional rate for services rendered. I dont know, I get your point and actually agree for the most part, I just don't think this particular contest is a good example. Maybe if it were Century Media, Nuclear Blast or Metalblade. You're right though, I don't care as much as you and that's probably why I don't think it's that big of deal.
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonan wrote:
alexyorkalive wrote:

I care that we're in a recession and it's extremely hard for good, skilled people to pay the bills or for newbies to get a foot in the door (without being taken advantage of like this).



In fairness almost every type of skilled profession is like that nowadays I finished a 5 year university degree 2 years ago and haven't been able to get a job in the field I studied because the only jobs out there are from employers who want people to work for nothing in order to gain experience.

At least in this case the person is actually getting paid something.


Agree. It sucks and it's common in many industries.

But in this instance it's not the case that the person doing the work is getting paid, not exactly. If 20 people submit designs only 1 of them will get paid. the other 19 won't get anything. At all. And from a purely business perspective I sincerely doubt that 1 "lucky guy" will ever see that money anyway, going on what Void has been saying here. There's been a complete lack of professionalism towards a customer and potential collaborator on a public forum. Can you imagine him being professional, polite and honourable in person when it comes to business? Reputation means a lot in this world.

This is why so many labels fail and so many tours are a fucking mess and bands get screwed. They're usually run by the same bunch of long-haired stoners that are in the bands, rather than people with proper business brains who know how to run things properly and how to treat their collaborators with respect.

A lot about learning how business works is in smelling rats and dodging shitty potential clients so you avoid getting screwed. Unfortunately pretty much everyone gets fucked at least once by a bad client but then you learn and avoid it in the future.
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Mikael



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1900

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexyorkalive wrote:

But in this instance it's not the case that the person doing the work is getting paid, not exactly. If 20 people submit designs only 1 of them will get paid. the other 19 won't get anything. At all. And from a purely business perspective I sincerely doubt that 1 "lucky guy" will ever see that money anyway, going on what Void has been saying here. There's been a complete lack of professionalism towards a customer and potential collaborator on a public forum. Can you imagine him being professional, polite and honourable in person when it comes to business? Reputation means a lot in this world.

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. You honestly think that "the winner" will be ripped off and not get the money as promised? And complite lack of professionalism towards a customer, you, because you've bought some of DMP-releases or someone else? Personally I've dealt with Void for many years and he has been polite and honoured his words. I understand that you think the payment he's offering is too low, but because of that you attack towards him as a person?
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael wrote:
alexyorkalive wrote:

But in this instance it's not the case that the person doing the work is getting paid, not exactly. If 20 people submit designs only 1 of them will get paid. the other 19 won't get anything. At all. And from a purely business perspective I sincerely doubt that 1 "lucky guy" will ever see that money anyway, going on what Void has been saying here. There's been a complete lack of professionalism towards a customer and potential collaborator on a public forum. Can you imagine him being professional, polite and honourable in person when it comes to business? Reputation means a lot in this world.

Now you're just making a fool of yourself. You honestly think that "the winner" will be ripped off and not get the money as promised? And complite lack of professionalism towards a customer, you, because you've bought some of DMP-releases or someone else? Personally I've dealt with Void for many years and he has been polite and honoured his words. I understand that you think the payment he's offering is too low, but because of that you attack towards him as a person?


Yes. I don't trust him, due to the way he's responded to my criticisms of this competition. I would have to treat him like I do all my potential clients and this is not one I'd go near to do work for.

His actions relating to the fee and other things are judgements he made, as a person operating a business. So of course he can be judged personally! Just as we all can when we act for a company.
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rthdx



Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Korolev, Russia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, a WAR! Razz

Don't want to take any sides, since it's Voids holy right to wish to get the job done for him on whatever conditions he would like to imagine, as well as mr. photographer has an equal right for a butthurt, since the offer is rather lower than actual market costs for this sort of work. But anyway, the question of curiosity is for latter: what concrete sum won't offend you for the work of this scale?
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