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VENOM black metal inventors or...?
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Pick your choice:
Venom originators of black metal
72%
 72%  [ 72 ]
No, all start in Scandinavia
27%
 27%  [ 27 ]
Total Votes : 99

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Dalen



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 1769

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimatum wrote:
My two cents: things just aren't as black and white as the OP suggests. Although I voted in Venom's favour, it isn't a simple choice between "Venom originators of Black Metal" or "No, all start in Scandinavia" (sic). It's very easy to look at a single specialized subgenre of music that has been developing over the course of three decades and gradually attained a common set of criteria (in this case you could mention blast beats, tremolo picking, Satanic / occult subject matter etc), and then look all the way back at the progenitors of the style and claim they have nothing to do with it because they don't fulfill all the criteria. No, Venom obviously didn't invent Black Metal as it had come to sound by the time Mayhem released DMDS and Darkthrone released Transylvanian Hunger. But Mayhem and Darkthrone didn't either. In the context of their time Venom is absolutely Black Metal, as is Mercyful Fate and Hellhammer.


Pretty much agree on this. What I have in mind is the year 2012 after all and how they should be considered nowadays.
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NK7
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread and that other "classic albums you don't like" HIV+ shitfest are the exact reasons why I've refused to socialize with metal people for the past 10 years and wish to keep it that way. The way these 20yo pretentious know-it-all little fucks go around sermonizing about what according to them is or is not metal is nothing but irritating.
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Dalen



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not 20, just 12. Where are your arguments though?
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GoldenBull



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who are Black Sabbath again? From what I remember they're just a mellow acoustic jam band that Pantera covered in the mid 90s.
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VATRA I SUMPOR



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcos the master of irony strikes again.
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NK7
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
I am not 20, just 12. Where are your arguments though?

My argument is actually very simple: if you don't see the importance played by Venom (lyrically, visually and -perhaps to a slightly minor extent, but still- musically) in the shaping of what is commonly referred to as "black metal" you're a clueless idiot and might as well fuck off back to youtube with your gang of mp3-collecting delusional imbeciles. And yeah, feel free to say I didn't give reasons for my point.
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Aszfargoth



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
What I have in mind is the year 2012 after all and how they should be considered nowadays.


Although your point of view is open to scrutiny, it is also ahistorical and thus to a certain extent inadequate. The development of black metal as a unique genre within heavy metal, and the establishment of a certain template or set of criteria as to what is (or can and should be, some would insist) commonly regarded as black metal, doesn't render Venom any less, well, black metal, in my opinion.

Also, I agree with Ultimatum's post, so I'll spare myself ultimately repeating his words. Furthermore, it's only natural, I'd say, that different genres of rock-based music will, to some extent, directly or indirectly influence each other, sound alike, have overlapping characteristics etc.


Last edited by Aszfargoth on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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ADK



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
What I have in mind is the year 2012 after all and how they should be considered nowadays.


Ok, THAT is a different discussion.

But seriously, what exactly has happened in Black Metal since....hhmm....let's say....ca. 1995/96? I only remember some already existing recipes getting varied or mixed together with other dishes.

Since the mid 90ies, we have STATE OF ART in Black Metal with albums like Filosofem or Transilvanian Hunger. I am not an expert on Symphonic BM but I don't think any band was superior to Limbonic Art or Emperor so far. Even "Avant-Garde" has already been done with Ved Buens Ende years ago. The momentary ongoing Blasphemy/Beherit-worship is also not much different from the late 90ies Black Thrash retro bands, and so on and on.

We are talking about a (un-)DEAD genre, that is still existing (which is good!), but hasn't really developed since ca. 15 years (which is, somehow, also good).

Of course, there will always be these faggot bands like Liturgy, Wolves in the Throne Room, Shining, The Kovenant or whatever trendy bullshit that tries to "break the rules" or be "open minded", but we all know they will fail, are gone fast and will not be remembered as BM by anyone.

And then, there will always THE VERY FILTHY FEW that actually manage to create something unique while respecting the traditional influences. But you can count them on two hands.
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Dalen



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aszfargoth wrote:
Dalen wrote:
What I have in mind is the year 2012 after all and how they should be considered nowadays.


Although your point of view is open to scrutiny, it is also ahistorical and thus to a certain extent inadequate. The development of black metal as a unique genre within heavy metal, and the establishment of a certain template or set of criteria as to what is commonly regarded as black metal, doesn't render Venom any less, well, black metal, in my opinion.


Not really, because this is why the terms genres and subgenres exist and subgenres as we know them nowadays are defined based on characteristics that have to do with the music. Venom is not qualified as a black metal band in that sense. Don't forget Running Wild were originally considered as a black metal band too, the way metal bands described their music at those times was very vague because metal was just in its very beginning.


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templedclxvi



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this thread went from almost fmp666 to downright metal-archives

oh btw hail VENOM the progenitors of black metal.


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holy ghost



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, this discussion boils down to one idea:

Does the term PROTO- _______ carry any weight?

To me no. Are the Stooges proto-punk? Is Venom proto-black metal? Was Bach proto-classical? I say no, because it's a fucking pointless way to classify things because genres should be used as broad reference points rather than strict guidelines. Too many opinions of sub-genres and classifications just over-intellectualizes a raw, primitive form of rock music. Why is there this need to relentlessly pigeonhole everything into it's own little area?

Edit: Blasphemy and Burzum are both black metal. So it can't be classified by sound, ideology, appearence, aesthetics or anything beyond a feel. And if Venom doesn't have that same evil, hateful, theatrical over the top quality that black metal seems to exhibit, well......
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Last edited by holy ghost on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dalen



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

templedclxvi wrote:
this thread went from almost fmp666 to downright metal-archives


I don't think so, all the facts are historically valid. And now you'll excuse me 'cause I have work to do.
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nileppez



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blodhemn9 wrote:
nileppez wrote:
blodhemn9 wrote:


Not much more to it than this.
Black Metal is not a rigid sonic template. It is an attitude, spirit, and aesthetic. This is why Venom is/was a black metal band, but Krallice, Liturgy etc are not.


Except that Cronos didn't give an actual fuck about satanism or any ideologies connected with black metal, had an attitude of a rock'n'roller, and cut himself off from actual black metal artists.


I'm obviously aware that Venom's satanism was tongue-in-cheek, but that does absolutely nothing to change the fact that their attitude and general aesthetic is still the defining characteristic of what black metal is all about.

That's like saying new Darkthrone or Satyricon have black metal attitude. Cronos was always more of a rock'n'roller, I don't know what you consider by "aesthetic" but when their ideology, attitude, sound, image are undeniably different from what we know as black metal, I don't get what makes them so black metal.
blodhemn9 wrote:
Like the poster I quoted above said, the very fact that Mayhem etc, (whom the other side of the this argument thinks 'actually' started black metal ) all considered Venom,Mercyful Fate etc etc to be THE bands that started black metal pretty much makes your point moot. I'm quite sure Euronymous, if asked today, would be of the same opinion that he was back then. Black Metal today may sound very different from Venom, but that does not change the fact that they lit the fire.

Playing a musical genre or not is a matter of fact, not an opinion of an authoritet. Although in case of black metal, where being part of it (in opinion of many) is more than a sound, the non-musical factors still don't make Venom black metal, or infact make them even less black metal.
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nileppez



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimatum wrote:
No, Venom obviously didn't invent Black Metal as it had come to sound by the time Mayhem released DMDS and Darkthrone released Transylvanian Hunger. But Mayhem and Darkthrone didn't either. In the context of their time Venom is absolutely Black Metal, as is Mercyful Fate and Hellhammer.

So you can say Venom were black metal, by the 80's definition of black metal, when it was more of satanic metal description than musical representator.

But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.
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holy ghost



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:
But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.


You might as well have typed "as of 11th December 2012, black metal is for queers"
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