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Classical music
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Climbatize311



Joined: 22 May 2010
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Climbatize311 wrote:
ADB wrote:
Climbatize311 wrote:
A lot of my favorites are from film scores.


Film scores are great and everything, but it's not classical music. Don't let the presence of an orchestra fool you


There is a great deal of overlap. Many of Michael Nyman's compositions, ones that were used in Greenaway films, existed prior to the films and were written as contemporary classical music. Same with Penderecki and the use of his music in Lynch and Kubrick films. Also, even if orchestral film scores written specifically for films are sometimes not strictly classical in the...classical sense, they bear enough similarity that I think it's appropriate here.


That's more of a case of classical pieces being used in films, which isn't different from putting pop music (or even a Morbid Angel song) in a film. But you could also argue that Nightwish is classical music with all their orchestras they keep on recording with, but it's not.

There is also a massive difference in the way film music and classical music is written, mostly due to commercial reasons, which confines film music quite a bit. It's obvious that film music is massively indebted to classical music, but it's like saying heavy metal is the same as blues.


I don't agree with the statement that orchestral film scores to classical music is like heavy metal to blues music (in that the former is indebted to the latter for its existence, but isn't quite the same overall). Let's say, for instance, that Morbid Angel scored a film (pre-Ilud Morbid Angel, mind you Wink ) and played it in a death metal style. But the songs were written as background to the action, as short :30ish second bursts, not in a traditional death metal way. But, it still carried many of the basic characteristics of death metal (growled vocals, downtuned guitars, blast beats). I think most would consider that the score was still death metal music, but just appropriated for a film. In the same way, I think music played in a classical style but written for a film is still classical music, just appropriated for a film. I definitely agree with you that film music is written in a different manner than classical, but I don't see why that changes its classification as classical music. The manner in which it is written (whether for commercial reasons or just to fit it appropriately within the film) doesnt seem to change the basic style for me.

If I'm not mistaken, there are hundreds of years of classical music, with different eras in which the genre is reevaluated. Contemporary minimalist classical is written differently from classical music 100 years ago, so why wouldn't orchestral film scores just be a different style of classical music?

And to your point of Nightwish...I can kinda see why that would make sense. But I would say that, if Nightwish makes use of an orchestra (I've never listened to them, so I don't know their sound) and combines it with metal, I would consider it just that...an amalgam of metal and classical. Not fully metal or fully classical but not not metal or not classical. I'm rushing right now, so I apologize if any of my logic is flawed or said bitchily!!
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically because although film music sounds similar to classical music, it is actually commercial music. There is music written specifically for film that is completely from the classical school of music (ie, those landscape films that Phillip Glass keeps appearing on). However most film music, while orchestra will be there, isn't classical music, it's pop music for films performed with an orchestra (and usually with electronics and a guitar as well these days). The actual melodic & harmonic structure is completely commercial.

The Morbid Angel reference was actually about a film that has one of their songs in it, as you were talking about actual classical music that has been used in film I was just mentioning that every style of music has been used in films. In my opinion, Nightwish aren't even metal, they're stadium rock, basically a Finnish version of Bon Jovi (less cowboys, more fairies Wink ) but how the orchestra doesn't make them classical in any sense at all.
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midgetviolence



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1PgI5YpqjQ

This is one of the greatest versions of this piece!

Piano at it's finest.
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Exitium



Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 1631
Location: Occiduus

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overlooked as a composer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16xof2zHjkQ

Even though it was written for vocal accompaniment, this instrumental recording is a lot better than my CD with the annoying opera.
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holy ghost



Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Basically because although film music sounds similar to classical music, it is actually commercial music.


All classical music is commercial in some way. Bach and Mozart depended on wealthy patrons the same way Glass needed gigs to stop driving cabs. I see what you're saying but you can't say that money hasn't been a driving factor in classical music, very few artists get to do exactly what they want if they're dependent on money...
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holy ghost wrote:
ADB wrote:
Basically because although film music sounds similar to classical music, it is actually commercial music.


All classical music is commercial in some way. Bach and Mozart depended on wealthy patrons the same way Glass needed gigs to stop driving cabs. I see what you're saying but you can't say that money hasn't been a driving factor in classical music, very few artists get to do exactly what they want if they're dependent on money...


Well, yes, but what I was getting at is that the structure of film music is much closer to contemporary pop music than classical music. I wasn't having a go at film music for being commercial, only pointing out that it changes the way it's written to suit those forces.

It was different commercial forces back in Bach's time that was driving the way he wrote his music which is completely different to what we have today, and the forces behind that were the dominant ones until pretty much the last 100 years (or WWI, take your pick).

So there's a bit of divergence in that Stravinsky, Glass, Reich, etc, come from the more traditional school of classical music composition that has taken a back seat to the dominant entertainment industry and the way its needs are met today. Hence, a different style of music, although with similar (though rarely ever the same) instrumentation and obvious influence.
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holy ghost



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Well, yes, but what I was getting at is that the structure of film music is much closer to contemporary pop music than classical music. I wasn't having a go at film music for being commercial, only pointing out that it changes the way it's written to suit those forces.


Totally agree with you here bro - except that I feel a lot of contemporary film music may have been written in a way similar to classic classical composers and then edited down - Wendy Carlos is probably the most glaring example that comes to my mind, you compare the Clockwork Orange OST to her "reissue" of the complete score and it's night and day. She was so angered by how he treated her music on the soundtrack, chopping it to bits. On the same line, look what Kubrick did with the 2001 soundtrack. Took a lot of exceptional pieces and just chopped them up for the soundtrack to suit your needs. So I'm 100% on board with what you're saying, but I think my point is still valid that a lot of these guys doing film work I'm sure would rather be doing more high brow stuff but go with where the paycheque is.

I think a great example is the Black Swan OST. Clint Mansell, if I'm not mistaken? I would love to hear that guy do more than 4 minute fills for a (admittedly excellent) film, but his potential is just wasted.
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ADB



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm getting at. The music's still good, and I've been listening to more film (and TV) music recently than classical music, but I still see them as different genres of music. I really don't think either is better or more valid than the other. Film music is just made to be absorbed instantly in small chunks with basic melody and trichord harmony (which is closer to what pop does), while classical music reveals itself slowly with intertwining melodies that may or may not also be the harmony. Where subtelty is king as opposed to being upfront with your emotional direction 90% of the time.

It's stupid to deny the use of classical music in film & TV and I'm sure we're going to see more and more film music adapted into fuller classical scores as these pieces gain recognition and the demand will increase; but I still see it as two different styles, at least for now.
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mlotek
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Classical music Reply with quote

Awhile ago, downloaded classical off the forum at http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/, as I was unfamiliar with probably half of it, or most of it. Maybe have heard something before on radio or in movies but do not know the composers/titles.

Though years ago, my interest started after BATHORY's Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods when released.

Besides liking the obvious - the Conan soundtrack, and Wagner (Faust Overture, Siegfried's Funeral March from "Gotterdammerung",etc), I also like Debussy, Holst's "The Planets", and Dvorak's "Slavonske Tance" (Slavonic Dances) as it takes me back through time.
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mlotek
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

midgetviolence wrote:


To be on topic:

Night on Bald Mountain by Mussorgsky. Really great!


I know it's old news to Alice Cooper fans that collect bootlegs, but discovered this was used in their live show in the early 1970s.
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alexyorkalive



Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of promotion for my folks' stuff...

Four Hands One Piano version of Holst's The Planets, as found by my father where he worked and as performed and recorded by both him and my mother.

http://yorkpiano.co.uk

Just as powerful as an orchestral performance, but I am biased...

You can find them on Amazon or just PM me if you want a copy directly from them.
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dunkelheit_prod



Joined: 18 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should discover LEBENSESSENZ. It's not from the past, but in general very melancholic piano music.

www.myspace.com/lebensessenz
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Flowertorture



Joined: 22 May 2011
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Location: Prague

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite bunch:

Mahler 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Strauss Alpensimfonie, Metamorphosen
Shostakovich 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, quartets, piano concerto, violin concerto
Brahms Deutche Requiem, 1, 4
Schubert 8, 9
Sibelius Violin concerto
Prokofiev Violin c
Tchaikovsky Violin c

Some Italian baroque, some modern music like Messiaen, Part, Gubaidulina etc., Wagner overtures, some Russian romantics etc.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADB wrote:
Basically because although film music sounds similar to classical music, it is actually commercial music.


Wasn't this division what they used to call "pops" music meaning modern classical made to fit commercial expectations of a postmodern time?
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ironearache



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paganini was the first shredder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amfCqFUMBkY
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