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Occult books
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Xeniteia



Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1449
Location: Rhône Valley, France

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottéro is an academician and an historian. So no theology in his books. However, I remember reading in an historical periodical several articles from him about the inaccuracies in the Bible which were well-written and fact-based. I still have this periodical somewhere, probably packed among other ones.

It depends if one wants factual information and analysis or the ramblings of one particular historical sect. It's too easy to cite authors without citing precisely which book, and often which part of the book, in which what you say is written. "As many old wise men said..." is good to confuse people, not to enlighten them. Even the fucking muslim clerics cite precisely which sura or which hadith they refer when talking about some religious topic. Something all this occult litterature barely manages to do at best... I guess the lame excuse will be that people can search by themselves and blame their own will to confuse people or their own outdated methods or or their own laziness on the reader's laziness. Because the reader is always less enlightened and lazier than the writer, of course...

Waiting for the contemptuous comments of the occult "elite" to come... Cool
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Last edited by Xeniteia on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steken



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xeniteia wrote:
It's too easy to cite authors without citing precisely which book, and often which part of the book, in which what you say is written. "As many old wise men said..." is good to confuse people, not to enlighten them. Even the fucking muslim clerics cite precisely which sura or which hadith they refer when talking about some religious topic. Something all this occult litterature barely manages to do at best...


Another reason is that many occultists tend to conflate different religious traditions, treating them as if they were, essentially, one and the same.

So, to them, it often "doesn't matter" if a given quote or term is from an ancient Sumerian tablet, a 12th century Christian mystic, or a 21th century Tibetan monk - because they assume (incorrectly, in my view) that the underlying idea remains the same throughout all eras and all cultures.

Olav Hammer has written an excellent book - Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of Epistemology from Theosophy to the New Age - on this and other "tactics" typically employed by occultists and esotericists.
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rauta



Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1543
Location: Finlandia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furthermore, many contemporary occult volumes are largely or at leat partly grimoiric and as such have little to do with academic study or related practices. Citing sources is all well and good but in the end remains irrelevant when the subject basically goes "do this and here's what's likely to happen" (well, in a nutshell). Different books for different purposes.
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Orpheus



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 741
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steken wrote:


Yep, the most fascinating (and hilarious) bit about Vril mysticism is the fact that Vril first popped up in a fucking novel - a work of fiction! It's the equivalent of dead-serious occultists rockin' Harry Potter Horcruxes twenty years from now...



That doesnt mean a damn thing. Bulwer-Lytton was widely rumoured to be a member of various Rosicrucian societies. If I'm not mistaken some letters and journal entries by Francis Barrett seem to confirm this.
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Steken



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orpheus wrote:
Steken wrote:


Yep, the most fascinating (and hilarious) bit about Vril mysticism is the fact that Vril first popped up in a fucking novel - a work of fiction! It's the equivalent of dead-serious occultists rockin' Harry Potter Horcruxes twenty years from now...



That doesnt mean a damn thing. Bulwer-Lytton was widely rumoured to be a member of various Rosicrucian societies. If I'm not mistaken some letters and journal entries by Francis Barrett seem to confirm this.


He might or might not have been a member of The Orphic Circle, but so what? The Coming Race was still a work of fiction, and he never claimed otherwise. Quite the opposite: He went out of his way to explain that the idea for Vril was inspired by electricity, not any "occult" force.

He was also never a member of any Rosicrucian society:

Quote:
Contrary to later rumors and claims, Bulwer-Lytton is not known to have belonged to any secret society or Order. He was not a Freemason. The Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (S.R.I.A.), apparently unaware of this, elected him their “Grand Patron” in 1872, but without his consent, for which the head of the Manchester College, John Yarker, humbly apologised.


Here are two reviews of a (fairly) recent book separating the facts from the fiction when it comes to the whole Buwler-Lytton / Rosicrucian / Vril power / Nazi occult / Hitler-as-adept matter:

http://heterodoxology.com/2013/05/11/the-all-too-secret-history-of-vril/

http://wouterjhanegraaff.blogspot.nl/2013/05/superpower.html
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Orpheus



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 741
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.biroco.com/kaos/

Theres an article in the PDF of Kaos 14 called "Beyond our Ken" which will explain my point far better than I ever could but the gist of it is that from a certain point of view trying to pin down this or that as work of fiction or a work of fact is a categorical error and misses the point entirely.

From the point of view of the scholar, the distinction is significant, but that is not the only relevant point of view.

I have two further points to make:

- It may have been inspired by electricity, but quite obviously the understanding of what electricity exactly *is* was quite clearly not at the same level as what it is today. That word and its pregnant meanings are entirely different to the Victorian gentleman. During that period, between electricity and magnetism people often thought that they were unlocking the secrets of life itself rather than the applied purpose for which we know it today. In accounts of sex magic/tantra/whatever electricity is a common theme.

- John Yarker and the SRIA are effectively (highly visible) strawmen. The SRIA was a masonic organization that basically appropriated rosicrucian symbolism and Yarker himself was basically a con-man who sold high level degrees to orders he made up out of thin air.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, have you read any of Levenda's work on this theme? I know he's a bullshitter, but I would be interested to hear your take on this subject.
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john matrix



Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 350
Location: Sacramento, CA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



This book is not an occult text, but those who interested in such topics will probably find something worthwhile here. Interesting theories on how and why occult systems, ceremonial magic, shamanic practice, and religions work.
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Orpheus



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 741
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, RAW's stuff is always worth reading
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Steken



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orpheus wrote:
http://www.biroco.com/kaos/

Theres an article in the PDF of Kaos 14 called "Beyond our Ken" which will explain my point far better than I ever could but the gist of it is that from a certain point of view trying to pin down this or that as work of fiction or a work of fact is a categorical error and misses the point entirely.

From the point of view of the scholar, the distinction is significant, but that is not the only relevant point of view.

I have two further points to make:

- It may have been inspired by electricity, but quite obviously the understanding of what electricity exactly *is* was quite clearly not at the same level as what it is today. That word and its pregnant meanings are entirely different to the Victorian gentleman. During that period, between electricity and magnetism people often thought that they were unlocking the secrets of life itself rather than the applied purpose for which we know it today. In accounts of sex magic/tantra/whatever electricity is a common theme.

- John Yarker and the SRIA are effectively (highly visible) strawmen. The SRIA was a masonic organization that basically appropriated rosicrucian symbolism and Yarker himself was basically a con-man who sold high level degrees to orders he made up out of thin air.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, have you read any of Levenda's work on this theme? I know he's a bullshitter, but I would be interested to hear your take on this subject.


You make a lot of good points!

Certainly it would be arrogant of me to dismiss all non-scholarly viewpoints as irrelevant or unimportant, and certainly works of fiction can be a valid source of inspiration for religious or occult ideas. (There's an anthology out there about that specific phenomenon - Brill's Handbook of Hyper-real Religions.)

The bit about electricity is also spot on. I tracked down Bulwer-Lytton's exact words, which reinforces your point:

Quote:
I did not mean Vril for mesmerism, but for electricity, developed into uses as yet only dimly guessed, and including whatever there may be genuine in mesmerism, which I hold to be a mere branch current of the one great fluid pervading all nature.


Thanks for an enlightening post. Never heard of this Levenda character - who's he?
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Tobias



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 234

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting stuff in this thread. Ouroboros Press (http://www.bookarts.org) makes a bunch of really nice volumes of old esoteric texts. A nice resource for anyone not familiar with them.
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Orpheus



Joined: 28 Dec 2011
Posts: 741
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steken wrote:

Thanks for an enlightening post. Never heard of this Levenda character - who's he?

No worries man, your own links are going to keep me busy for the next few days for sure.

"Simon" Peter Levenda, is most famous under his pseudonym "Simon", under which he "edited" the common Necronomicon paperback in the late 70s.
He resurfaced in the late 90s publishing stuff under his own name, the book I'm speaking of specifically is "Unholy Alliance" where he treats the NSDAP as less of a political movement and more of a cult and differentiates it from other fascist movements of the time.

There is a weird text by Crowley, dealing with some supposed past life regression in which he describes the "technology" of Atlantis and how it all runs on Vril or Zro or something. Reading between the lines, its all sexual alchemy and has a weird dreamyness to it. I dont have the means to check which of the Libri it was, but I'll put it up when I do.
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Steken



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting once again, thank you.

Speaking of Crowley, the latest scholarly book on him - Marco Pasi's Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics - is getting very, very, very good reviews. Definitely adding that one to my never-ending reading list...!
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dimitry



Joined: 25 Mar 2014
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I don't "believe" in the occult and such, it is an endlessly fascinating topic, and these books are very inspiring to read. Some good recommendations here.
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happyfriggincamper



Joined: 30 Mar 2011
Posts: 59
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steken wrote:
happyfriggincamper wrote:
I honestly haven't scanned this thread at all, but are there any recommendations from people who have read books which are about the Thule, Order of Vril and other pre-Third Reich occult groups and by association the extension into Nazi UFOs?


What do you want to know, exactly?

In any case, the (perhaps somewhat disappointing) basic facts are these:

An overwhelming majority of Germany's "pre-Third Reich occult groups" did NOT hold ariosophic or proto-Nazi beliefs - and Hitler himself was absolutely NOT an occultist.

In fact, the Nazi state cracked down hard on occultism and the like: In 1933, Freemasons were banned from the NSDAP, and barred from government work; as early as 1935, a Gestapo memo boasts that "Freemasonry in Germany is completely smashed." In 1937, most remaining "occult, theosophical and psychical research groups" were forbidden, and in 1939, all government employees were forbidden from becoming members of even "quasi-masonic" organizations.

So the whole "Nazi-occult" thing is basically bullshit.

As for pre-Nazi-era Ariosophy, the central text is Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels' Theozoologie oder die Kunde von den Sodoms-Äfflingen und dem Götterelektron (1905), a delightfully kooky little book. Highly recommended, if you're into that sort of thing...


My interests lie mostly focused on and events surrounding Maria Orsic. In short summary, Vril Gesellschaft/Thule Gesellschaft/Black Sun interactions, her transmissions of Ancient Sumerian and Knights Templar text, resulting in the building of RFZ series aircraft and the end of war, Operation HighJump. But hell, I love a good extraterrestrial conspiracy so I am up for claims/theories of intergalactic nazi treaties/betrayal and nazi’s in space and so forth haha! I'm not sure how far you have looked into these particular claims.

And for the record since I have better clarified where my interests were more-so, I don’t really view this specific topic as ‘occult’ like a lot of historians and documentarists seem to tag it. We don’t call extraterrestrial researchers or claimed contactees ‘occultists’. It's the same as every other damn alien theory, plausible not provable xenobiology.

Anyway, I haven’t decided on which grade tinfoil hat to buy online yet, but I did decide on these books over the last few days.

Hammer of the Gods: The Thule Society and the Birth of Nazism
http://www.amazon.com/Hammer-Gods-Thule-Society-Nazism/dp/1597978574

Saucers, Swastikas and Psyops: A History of A Breakaway Civilization: Hidden Aerospace Technologies and Psychological Operations
http://www.amazon.com/Saucers-Swastikas-Psyops-Civilization-Psychological/dp/1935487752
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Hallucinogen



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 636

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, is Deepak Chopra occult?
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