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Regression the way of metal or just another word for Retro?
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NWN PROD



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 16306
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Regression the way of metal or just another word for Retro? Reply with quote

I think most of you here are fans of the old, be it old metal, old layouts, old underwear, old women, etc. At what point does regression turn into retro bandwagon crap like what we see in LA today? Is there such a thing as refreshingly old? To me there is something to be said about creating something new using the old formula that's worked for the past 25-30 years of metal history. I am not saying that there is nothing new that can be done with metal. I don't need a breakfast burrito with three kinds of cheese and whatever. Just give me a rice and beans burrito please.
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Invictus Productions



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 673
Location: Dublin, IRELAND

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it has been that way since the second wave of early 90s Black Metal when long forgotten bands like Sodom, Frost/Hellhammer etc were being touted left, right and centre and when primitive sounds & styles were lauded. Retro fashion exists because, by and large, nothing that is created today is created with a genuine spark of creative evolution and trying to force things/challenge the status quo like Motorhead, the Sex Pistols, Venom etc did.
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NWN PROD



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 16306
Location: SF Bay Area

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are plenty of bands trying to shake up the status quo. The difference between now and then is that most of these new bands suck. Just because they're doing something different doesn't mean that they are good. I'm talking about bands like newer DHG or Arcturus.
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Invictus Productions



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 673
Location: Dublin, IRELAND

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NWN PROD wrote:
I think there are plenty of bands trying to shake up the status quo. The difference between now and then is that most of these new bands suck. Just because they're doing something different doesn't mean that they are good. I'm talking about bands like newer DHG or Arcturus.

People said the same in the 80s. When Frost did Into the Pandemonium they were laughed at by fans and media alike. Some fans understood what they were trying to do and it produced a whole wave of bands later on that began to evolve musically because of that one album. In ten odd years time people will look back at some of the sort of gear you mentioned like DHG (not me personally) and possibly see it in a similar context. I think a lot of retro bands are contrived whether they be Blasphemy clones or Exodus clones.
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Karan



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 1360

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retro, for the sake of being labeled retro, sucks. I will always prefer a clone copy of old Slayer than let's say an Emperor clone or a band trying to be too original. But if that Slayer clone is just doing it for the sake of a rising thrash popularity, no matter how good the music could be, it just will leave a bitter taste after all.
For new bands, more than a style, I am looking for passion of playing this music. For example Nocturnal Graves, although they can be compared to many bands, they are the kind of music that nowadays I like, and they do not intend to be retro for the sake of it. And they can be labeled as a new band. By the way, one of my fave releases, great job Yosuke!
On the other hand, bands like Bonded by Blood are just a pathetic excuse to play metal.
This might have been ignited by those countless reunion$. To be honest, it is really sad to see so many of my old time heroes to be such a poor copy of themselves, yet they are a great for marketing purposes.
I guess that fashion, in all forms tends to repeat itself after a while, and now it is turn for metal. Probably the only good thing will be a temporal revival for vynil (to be as ld school as possible) but that's about it.
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krawling kaos



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the primary difference is spirit; and because it's such an intangible quality, it's really hard to explain why some bands so clearly suck, while other bands absolutely slay.

It's hard to see originality in the present, because these things are cyclical; nothing is formed without some evolutionary precursor. I think when you have a trend or movement, there's a first wave of people that move on really quickly; to them it was just a fashion statement or whatever (like the first wave of punk, or 70s hard rock). Then the second wave, like the originator's younger siblings, embrace it for it's own sake, not because it's the trend , but because they genuinely dig it(this is where hardcore punk and NWOBHM comes in). Because they are approaching it on their own terms, they mutate it, making it their own rather the going by the dictated formula. So the evolution comes from the old spirit being carried on by the younger generation; a synthesis of old and new. At least that's what Hegel would say ha ha!

So, if you go to Chicago, you'll have the best burritos in the world. But then if you try to recreate that back home, you'll start the new burrito generation. NWOBHM=New Wave of Burrito Hungy Masses!
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krawling kaos



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 194
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, to get back to the original point: I guess the difference between the retro crap and brilliant stuff in the old vein is if you are embracing it as a trend, or just doing what you love. If you do what you love, it kinda becomes your own anyway, because you put your spirit into it. Yeah, I like talking; gift of gab, right?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a few years we'll see if it was just a trend or there was something true behind all those bands playing old school music.
I think my band is not retro, but old school. Mainly because we don't want to sound like X band, we want to have our own sound, but respecting the values of the old school. I think that's the difference between trendy bands and bands that play old school style. For example, when I listen to Violator and all those bands, I get bored and wonder why I am listening to that instead of Hirax, Exodus, Destruction. Those bands don't give me anything that the other bands already have. But when I listen to Funerot I feel like listening a totally fresh band, even though they play old school thrash and aren't pushing the boundaries or anything of the sort.
I don't know if I explained it well, because is hard to put the sensations you have with music in words, and even harder if it's in a foreign language.
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Blood Of Von



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 812

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for us old farts on here, it's simply the music we grew up with and know and respect most. I personally find, for my taste , the olden days of metal far better than todays, even though there are some fucking ripping and "honest" bands around (in regards to their music and why they are doing it)

I listen to the older vinyl in my collection that I grew up with far more than I do the more recent. I agree, I would rather a slayer clone, than and emperor clone, as long as it's done "honestly". I think this is an "issue" in other forms of music as well, not just metal.

At the same time though... a band that's doing something "different/original and well performed" can be totally slammed for it. So it's "Damned if you fucking do, Damned if you fucking don't"
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Endless Morbidity



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2108
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing to over analyze. The old bands were better, it's as simple as that. In the 80's there was distinct differences between all the bands and they wrote memorable songs. They didn't sound like anything else, because there wasn't much of anything else and everyone would strive to have a unique face.

What I don't understand is peoples need for more. This need to progress, this need for more records. What use is a parody like Merciless Death when you can listen to "Bonded by Blood" or "Possessed by Fire"? Why the fuck should I spend hard earned dollars on Warhammer when I can listen to "Apocalyptic Raids"?

Retro Thrash bands are moronic, but at the same time terms like "old school" are useless too, because any real Metal band is just a continuum of the 80's and early 90's. It's just that few are able to do it with any conviction or originality.

Simply put, most bands today are shit. But I'm not complaining, because there are enough old records and the few good bands today are good enough to keep me satisfied.

I think most people whine about how poor "the scene" is, because all they want is a social club and they will root on any worthless band who say the right things. I never needed the company of others to enjoy a record, so let "the scene" burn!
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LifeDepraved



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2540
Location: Glendale AZ

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree totally with Endless Morbidity. Mostly on the scene part. I've always disliked scenes, never wanted to be part of one. I hate how everyone likes to put you in a corner just because they know you listen to some more "Extreme" music then they do...so you're automatically put as a metalhead with these other numbskulls who just use it as a fashion statement than really enjoying the music. Probably the reason I just like to listen to music alone...cause I don't feel any of my friends appreciate it as much as I do. And I'm not saying that as being closed-minded, but I dislike being mocked for the music I listen to.

And again with the "retro" bands. There are so many from where I live...it's ridiculous, and they treat it like it's their own thing when they are a huge lie in front of a bunch of eat-it-up high schoolers.

But like I said, I just keep my own things to myself and that's about it
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Mastubator



Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 336
Location: Sodom

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retro bands = the organic burrito? Or free range burritos.... (burritos, running free through the fields and rivers) Whilst the first ones with the idea were honest about their intentions, it's since been abused by others, just another money making sceme.

But I couldn't agree fully on the 80's being a pure age. There were shit bands then, and there are shit bands now. Just that all the unoriginal ones from 20 years ago have been forgotten. And drummings inproved ALOT over the past 20 years. There are still plenty of diamonds left to dig up in the fields of shit, you've just got to be willing to look for them.

Perhaps one problem is that bands these days don't have varied enough influences (the first wave bands would listen to everything from Rush, Kiss to Blue Cheer. And I'm sure that Blasphemy, Root and Samael mention alot of Classical work in interviews - Stravisky etc) whilst now it's all from one single genre- trying to recreate their heroes.
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Opolus



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1031

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thazz some shit I've been contemplating a lot before, too, like were those old bands and releases simply better, or is it plainly because you grew up with them, and that's the plain and simple reason I prefer HELLHAMMER and VENOM over _________(insert modern band name of your liking here)? I actually don't want to dwell exclusively in the past, and I think there's still some really great Metal released nowadays, but the main problem is obviously, that nearly EVERYone has the urge to do SOMETHING just for the sake of it, be it forming a band, operating a label from your grannies cellar or coming up with a kvlt zine. I don't want to sound pretentious, but when observing all that MASSIVE slab of mediocre "Metal"-related releases, one should really start questioning the impulse behind it... And don't even get me started about the "scene"!! Irish mate "Invictus Productions" came up with the "Pandemonium"-era FROST vs. DHG comparison and although I perfectly get your point, I sincerely DON'T think that "666 International" will receive the same status after a decade (or so) has gone by, simply because the impulse (there you go again) wasn't the same. You can be as retro as Hell itself or as "original" and daring as possible, if it is just for the sake of it, it's bloody useless!! If music isn't deriving from a particular impulse, and just "conceived" it may be even OK, but will eventually not stand the test of time. Why do people still, after all those years, talk about "Apocalyptic Raids" "Black Metal" or "Don't Break The Oath", although there's been zillions of albums following? Simply because those were the ones that had the IT factor (as I call it)!! The same with early BLACK SABBATH albums, that still attract several generations after their initial releases. It's all about the impulse not about "participating"!!
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Hellfire Commando



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 2232
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know about you guys, but I certainly feel/hear it when I hear a band that tries to live a past that never existed, and a band that plays for themselves because they just live for music.

Cochino, I was just listening to FUNEROT yesterday afternoon and was telling myself the same thing. This band plays really fast thrash but doesn’t sound like they want to imitate a million other bands. It clearly shows that they do it for themselves. Same thing with ARES KINGDOM, NOCTURNAL GRAVES… etc.

Yosuke, ever heard AFTER THE BOMBS? Sure, they are labeled “crust” but fuck, their latest EP “Relentless Onslaught” is really something…
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dalecooper



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 2925
Location: Athens, GA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty of bands do bad, thrift store versions of the music they are influenced by. A rare few sound like they could be from that era themselves, or are carrying the torch with due respect and the right spirit behind it. For me it's just a gut feeling when I listen to 'em. Pentacle is a perfect example - you could point out a hundred (or a thousand) retro-death bands that are just boring, but Pentacle gets it completely right, at least to me.
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