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Metal Romanticism
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minge-eater



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

awwwwww.... i love you all
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anarchometal666



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
Dodens Grav wrote:
The only thing anybody ever disagreed with you about is your claim that Romanticism is inherent in metal, not that it's overly abundant.


Well, let's see... Black Sabbath and the NWOBHM classics all featured it.


The funny fact is that "Romantic" in these years of NWOBHM and thrash that followed was not so welcome word in the metal scene back then.

Why?

Well, here we go again... because of a fucking SPANDAU BALLET! Laughing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSq8ZBdSxNU
So Romantic = so metal
And this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_x1zqLj1k&feature=fvw
True? Yes, so appropriate title for one metal band, and finally - that "metal up your ass!" sentiment truly lives!
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GoldenBull



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Metal Romanticism Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
See if any of this sounds familiar:

Quote:

Romanticism is a complex artistic, literary, and intellectual movement that originated in the second half of the 18th century in Western Europe, and gained strength during the Industrial Revolution.[1] It was partly a revolt against aristocratic social and political norms of the Age of Enlightenment and a reaction against the scientific rationalization of nature,[2] and was embodied most strongly in the visual arts, music, and literature.

The movement stressed strong emotion as a source of aesthetic experience, placing new emphasis on such emotions as trepidation, horror and awe—especially that which is experienced in confronting the sublimity of untamed nature and its picturesque qualities, both new aesthetic categories. It elevated folk art and custom to something noble, and argued for a "natural" epistemology of human activities as conditioned by nature in the form of language, custom and usage.

...

Our modern sense of a romantic character may be expressed in Byronic ideals of a gifted, perhaps misunderstood loner, creatively following the dictates of his inspiration rather than the mores of contemporary society.

...

Furthermore, several romantic authors, such as Edgar Allan Poe and Nathaniel Hawthorne, based their writings on the supernatural/occult and human psychology.


....

One of Romanticism's key ideas and most enduring legacies is the assertion of nationalism, which became a central theme of Romantic art and political philosophy. From the earliest parts of the movement, with their focus on development of national languages and folklore, and the importance of local customs and traditions, to the movements which would redraw the map of Europe and lead to calls for self-determination of nationalities, nationalism was one of the key vehicles of Romanticism, its role, expression and meaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism


This is not the best source, but it gives you a good basic idea of the tenets of Romanticism.

In metal, I see these:

* The sublime
* Horror
* Focus on the ancient
* Ruins
* Dissident loners
* Occultism
* Nationalism and folklore-worship



You forgot the emphasis on memory. It links Wordsworth and Burzum very nicely.
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Dodens Grav



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
Dodens Grav wrote:
The only thing anybody ever disagreed with you about is your claim that Romanticism is inherent in metal, not that it's overly abundant.


Well, let's see... Black Sabbath and the NWOBHM classics all featured it.

Most if not all of the classic death metal featured it.

Speed metal and thrash were more political, but "Escape" from Metallica and all of the Slayer stuff is clearly Romantic.

So yes, I think it's a tenet of the genre, just as much as the heavy riff or the heavy subject matter.

In fact, it's that heavy subject matter that is the link, I think.


Tenets are not necessarily inherent. Something that is inherent is so integral to the very essence of the thing to the point that it cannot be separated from that thing without it being no longer said thing. You can remove Romanticism from metal and still have metal. Because of this, Romanticism is not inherent to metal. So instead of continually attempting to force a square peg into a round hole by hyperbolically postulating the immovability of some ethereal and ill-defined concept as Romanticism from metal, how about we merely discuss the way that Romanticism relates to metal? It's better than pretending that something which is not, is. I don't see how its non-inherent nature makes it any less significant, yet your insistence that it is inherent suggests that you think otherwise.
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In Solitude



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anarchometal666 wrote:
The funny fact is that "Romantic" in these years of NWOBHM and thrash that followed was not so welcome word in the metal scene back then.

Why?

Well, here we go again... because of a fucking SPANDAU BALLET! Laughing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSq8ZBdSxNU
So Romantic = so metal
And this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_x1zqLj1k&feature=fvw
True? Yes, so appropriate title for one metal band, and finally - that "metal up your ass!" sentiment truly lives!


I find it hard to believe that you are as stupid as you seem, so I'm just going to assume you are trolling. Then again, your username does have "anarcho" in it, which usually correlates less than full brain function.

@ pataphysicien: Yeah, I think it really can be a form of escapism. I guess it depends on how each person listens and responds to the bands that really resonate with them. I think that Metal is a source of strength, escapism, catharsis, etc. just depending on what one is looking for.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodens Grav wrote:
Something that is inherent is so integral to the very essence of the thing to the point that it cannot be separated from that thing without it being no longer said thing. You can remove Romanticism from metal and still have metal.


This assertion Lewontin's fallacy in musical form.

Metal is a group of tenets. Without all of them, you lack metal. Just like I could create a band that's all death metal except the melodies, which I could borrow from Aqua, and it wouldn't turn out so metal.

Tenets are inherent because they're united by some idea behind any musical genre, artistic period, political movement, etc. In metal that's the heavy, which descends directly from Romanticism.

In fact, I think we're going to look silly if we don't acknowledge how much of metal's imagery, lyrics and musical approach is borrowed directly from Romanticism and Romanticist-influenced composers, visual artists, and so on.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Metal Romanticism Reply with quote

GoldenBull wrote:
You forgot the emphasis on memory. It links Wordsworth and Burzum very nicely.


Could you elaborate for myself and others here?

Agreed on Burzum. In particular, the emphasis on mythic imagination is similar:

Quote:

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon,
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
- The World is Too Much With Us, William Wordsworth (1789)

http://www.anus.com/zine/db/friedrich_nietzsche/friedrich_nietzsche-on_truth_and_lies_in_a_non-moral_sense/


Quote:

While we may believe
our world - our reality
to be that is - is but one
manifestation of the essence

Other planes lie beyond the reach
of normal sense and common roads
But they are no less real
than what we see or touch or feel

Denied by the blind church
'cause these are not the words of God
- the same God that burnt the
knowing

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/burzum/detsomengangvar.html#1

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GoldenBull



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as Wordsworth goes, The Preludes have a lot of material focusing on this idea that somewhere in the narrator's memory there is a sort of utopia in his youthful past that he longs for and almost reaches through memory.
Sure, it plays into the collective unconscious idea, and other things like it, but I definitely think it is a Promethean story if for no other reason than because of the endless longing for something one can only catch a fleeting glimpse of. For me, that is the heart of Romanticism and I think Vikernes is obsessed with the themes it touches on. BUT I do not find Romantic qualities in most metal I have listened to.
Drudkh is another great example I'd say, especially Blood In Our Wells.
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Dodens Grav



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conservationist wrote:
Dodens Grav wrote:
Something that is inherent is so integral to the very essence of the thing to the point that it cannot be separated from that thing without it being no longer said thing. You can remove Romanticism from metal and still have metal.


This assertion Lewontin's fallacy in musical form.


I see no parallel here unless you're working under the pretense of an alternative definition of 'inherent.'

Please share the definition of "inherent" you're familiar with. Evidently it is at odds with my own, and those in dictionaries. For example, this one:

"Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic."

If Romanticism existed as an essential constituent to metal, then there could be no pure metal that lacked Romanticism. By virtue of the meaning of the term. Unless you are arguing that there is no metal that does not have Romanticism, then you are wrong to describe it as inherent. Either that or you are using some alternative understanding of the word 'inherent.'

Conservationist wrote:
Metal is a group of tenets. Without all of them, you lack metal. Just like I could create a band that's all death metal except the melodies, which I could borrow from Aqua, and it wouldn't turn out so metal.


So you are saying, by way of your claim that Romanticism is a tenet of metal and that metal must possess all these tenets to be metal, that there is no non-Romantic metal. Am I reading this properly? If so, I'm not even going to waste any more time on this.

Conservationist wrote:
Tenets are inherent because they're united by some idea behind any musical genre, artistic period, political movement, etc. In metal that's the heavy, which descends directly from Romanticism.


The fact that heavy metal is heavy qualifies it as Romantic? You have a low, and thus valueless, criterion for what qualifies as the Romantic, in this case, evidently in an attempt to promote the importance of Romanticism to metal.

Conservationist wrote:
In fact, I think we're going to look silly if we don't acknowledge how much of metal's imagery, lyrics and musical approach is borrowed directly from Romanticism and Romanticist-influenced composers, visual artists, and so on.


And yet this has nothing to do with an inherent nature.

Why is the claim of inherent nature so important to you? I say it is seemingly rather important to you because you either defiantly hold to a position that is obviously wrong or have such a low standard to fit your criterion that the ultimate significance of the claim is drastically reduced. If by mere virtue of music being heavy something can be deemed Romantic, then it's not a very noteworthy claim to begin with, but if we use a greater standard for applying the Romantic, then the claim of inherent nature obviously falls short due to the existence of non-Romantic metal bands.

So which is it? Do you follow a definition of 'inherent' that for some inexplicable reason is absent of the idea of essence? Do you have a compromisingly low standard for the Romantic? Or do you just not care that your hyperbolic claim is inaccurate?
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anarchometal666



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Solitude wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you are as stupid as you seem, so I'm just going to assume you are trolling. Then again, your username does have "anarcho" in it, which usually correlates less than full brain function


Wow! Chill out man.
So, let me put you this way:

I do think that there are some pretty valid parallels with Romanticism and Metal. Yes, Metal do share some sentiments with Romanticism, but... Metal is inherently Romantic? I think it's not.

I think that Metal is Metal, it obviously have it's own identity as an art form. Saying that Metal is inherently Romantic/Religious/XYZ-whatever just doesn't help defining that identity but rather to redefine it. It's a bit oversimplification of things.

Again, I find a lot of funny irony of such use of the term "Romantic" in the context of NWOBHM and that timeline. Fucking Spandau Ballet and such bands as Duran Duran, Soft Cell, Visage etc. and whole that trendy movement was called Neo-Romantics back then... you didn't knew that?
Now, funny to think - just imagine going on some Saxon or Witchfinder General gig somewhere around '83 and telling them that they are "so inherently Romantic"... I doubt they will be so happy to agree on that, and even more, they will probably think there's taking a piss on 'em is going on...
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dalecooper



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romanticism is prevalent in metal but not inherent to it. Any attempt to argue against this statement = Rolling Eyes . There's simply too much non-Romantic music which is obviously purely metal, as dimensional has already pointed out. The exceptions proved and subsequently discredited the rule. Er, alleged rule.
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pataphysicien



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodens Grav wrote:
Why is the claim of inherent nature so important to you? I say it is seemingly rather important to you because you either defiantly hold to a position that is obviously wrong or have such a low standard to fit your criterion that the ultimate significance of the claim is drastically reduced. If by mere virtue of music being heavy something can be deemed Romantic, then it's not a very noteworthy claim to begin with, but if we use a greater standard for applying the Romantic, then the claim of inherent nature obviously falls short due to the existence of non-Romantic metal bands.

So which is it? Do you follow a definition of 'inherent' that for some inexplicable reason is absent of the idea of essence? Do you have a compromisingly low standard for the Romantic? Or do you just not care that your hyperbolic claim is inaccurate?


that reminds me of this:

Quote:
I still wonder then why someone would try to argue for Metal being 'inherently' romantic. but not only that: in combination with the claims that 'most of the best metal bands were attached to the far right and espoused nationalism' I start wondering again why somebody would selectively highlight these things and argue that Heavy Metal is (or should be?) about them. smells dubious.


I do not believe though that the notion of essence is of any use, except saying: 'this is it. you have been served. no more to it!'. it is an undue way of cutting short politics. things may always surprise us with more qualities, so rather than limit them by logic and restrict them to 'essential' existence, why not be a bit more modest and be open to change? (the material universe is obviously not a place made to always fit what we think something logically should be, but that is almost beside the point)



if the questions quoted above do not give meaning in Conversationist's world: let's assume for arguments sake that some metal bands could satisfy a longer checklist of 'romantic qualities' than others. what would we gain by calling them 'romantic'? what significant 'more' would we understand?

that relates to another grande problem I wish to point out, Conservationist: you obviously think it is a reasonable strategy to draw simple parallels between the analysis of genetic material and the wealth of ever changing and ever contingent historical development of cultures. somebody may indeed write poetry that somehow qualifies for some things on the 'romantic' checklists that historians have produced. now that could have happened in pretty much any musical culture in the present, or in many times and places of the past. then why try to make that continuity from 'Romanticism'? would it not be more exciting to understand the present on it's own terms, instead of reaching for a word that historians have made to stand for another contingent period of history?

again then: why push it so hard? my suspicion: you've made it part of some 'worldview' of yours and it would be uncomfortable for you to loose that element. if you'd explicate your politics it would be easier to pull the tooth, maybe fix it and put it back in.
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pataphysicien



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

minge-eater wrote:
awwwwww.... i love you all


thank you. I don't know yet if I love you, but at least your signature makes me look over my shoulder or awkwardly try to shield my monitor with my body when I browse the forums at the office. that makes me a bit chuckly Very Happy
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Then, AS you Sweden, Too?
Compared to Finland,
your Country 90's death metal is very stupid & poor sound
Do you know why? Ask Your KING Dan Swanö .

Do you know ?
because of stupid like you. Died My old friend Jon Nödtveidt.
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Conservationist
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodens Grav wrote:
I see no parallel here unless you're working under the pretense of an alternative definition of 'inherent.'


Inherent = essential to the collection of traits which define membership in a category.

Lewontin's fallacy applies because by looking for a single component that defined a category created of a collection, he created a false definition of that category.

In this case, we're batting around the term "inherent."

As metal is an amalgam, what's inherent to it are several traits unified around some core idea.

I'd argue this idea is "heavy," or acceptance of darkness by the individual as a means to more intense experience, and that it is derived from European Romanticism.

Among other things... metal music was inspired by horror movie soundtracks, and those are derived from the music of Wagner and Bruckner just about exclusively.

Even more, we see a lot of metal imagery that corresponds entirely to the Romantic movement:

* Ruins
* The macabre
* Isolation
* The crowd
* Identification with occult figures
* Dislike of herd morality

Related: What does 'metal' really mean?

Related: Metal as European Romanticism

Related: An Alex Kurtagic column
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