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VENOM black metal inventors or...?
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Pick your choice:
Venom originators of black metal
72%
 72%  [ 72 ]
No, all start in Scandinavia
27%
 27%  [ 27 ]
Total Votes : 99

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templedclxvi



Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 720
Location: finland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:


But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.


so 20-30 years from now, you can say nowadays black metal bands aren't black metal anymore because the genre has evolved into different soundscapes?
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Ultimatum



Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 351
Location: Demoniac City, Land of Mystery

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:
Ultimatum wrote:
No, Venom obviously didn't invent Black Metal as it had come to sound by the time Mayhem released DMDS and Darkthrone released Transylvanian Hunger. But Mayhem and Darkthrone didn't either. In the context of their time Venom is absolutely Black Metal, as is Mercyful Fate and Hellhammer.

So you can say Venom were black metal, by the 80's definition of black metal, when it was more of satanic metal description than musical representator.

But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.


Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of Black Metal as of today?

To me Venom is just as Black Metal as Mayhem, just as Dark Angel's Darkness Descends and Kreator's Pleasure to Kill are just as Death Metal as Morbid Angel.

If a band just like Venom would release an album today, it would undeniably be Black Metal.
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nileppez



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Posts: 725
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

templedclxvi wrote:
nileppez wrote:


But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.


so 20-30 years from now, you can say nowadays black metal bands aren't black metal anymore because the genre has evolved into different soundscapes?

No, because black metal has already been around for over 20 years and it's clear what the term describes to everyone. (except few people at this forum apparently)

But musical terms evolve, and at the time early Venom albums were being released, black metal was no more than loose term applied to a number of similiar lyrically, different musically bands. Back then nobody knew what will happen few years later and that the description will be used for very different stylistically bands.
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templedclxvi



Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 720
Location: finland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:

No, because black metal has already been around for over 20 years and it's clear what the term describes to everyone. (except few people at this forum apparently)



you do realize VENOM pretty much defines black metal to the majority of the forum?
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NWN PROD



Joined: 10 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sort of discussion makes me want to ban most of you.

This is the best thing said so far.
Quote:
Not everything follows a linear, progressive pattern, you know. That being said, who gives a fuck?

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nileppez



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Posts: 725
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimatum wrote:
nileppez wrote:
Ultimatum wrote:
No, Venom obviously didn't invent Black Metal as it had come to sound by the time Mayhem released DMDS and Darkthrone released Transylvanian Hunger. But Mayhem and Darkthrone didn't either. In the context of their time Venom is absolutely Black Metal, as is Mercyful Fate and Hellhammer.

So you can say Venom were black metal, by the 80's definition of black metal, when it was more of satanic metal description than musical representator.

But now, as of 11th December 2012, the definition of black metal isn't what Venom fits.


Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of Black Metal as of today?

Basically music that sounds (possibly) close to what is widely defined as black metal. Take the ideology with it or not, I don't care. Not for discussing in this thread.

Ultimatum wrote:
To me Venom is just as Black Metal as Mayhem, just as Dark Angel's Darkness Descends and Kreator's Pleasure to Kill are just as Death Metal as Morbid Angel.

Might as well count Reign in Blood as death metal, fuck that, disregard entire thrash metal genre, in the end DEATH METAL BANDS WORE THRASH TSHIRTS, CLAIMED INFLUENCE, TOURED AND COVERED THRASH BANDS SO THRASH METAL IS DEATH METAL pretty much.

Ultimatum wrote:
If a band just like Venom would release an album today, it would undeniably be Black Metal.

So, say Midnight plays Black Metal in your opinion?
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nileppez



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
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Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

templedclxvi wrote:
nileppez wrote:

No, because black metal has already been around for over 20 years and it's clear what the term describes to everyone. (except few people at this forum apparently)



you do realize VENOM pretty much defines black metal to the majority of the forum?

and this thread proves why those thinking so are ignorant dipshits - more ignorant than NK7 dude who at least is able to see how overextended the musical influence is

If VENOM defines black metal then pretty much entirety of bm bands are actually very far from black metal. Cronos himself said norwegians played death metal, so let's go by his definition
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satanic ritual abuse



Joined: 09 May 2011
Posts: 2173

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADK wrote:


But seriously, what exactly has happened in Black Metal since....hhmm....let's say....ca. 1995/96? I only remember some already existing recipes getting varied or mixed together with other dishes.



+1

I'm already missing Stalinorgel's rants about shitty Black Metal rip offs.
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Aszfargoth



Joined: 07 May 2011
Posts: 278

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:
Not really, because this is why the terms genres and subgenres exist and subgenres as we know them nowadays are defined based on characteristics that have to do with the music. Venom is not qualified as a black metal band in that sense. Don't forget Running Wild were originally considered as a black metal band too, the way metal bands described their music at those times was very vague because metal was just in its very beginning.



Of course, self-appointed genre names were common. And although I am not knowledgeable enough in the music of Running Wild, in Venom's case, I am confident in bestowing upon them the "black metal" label, because I find their take on metal to contain musical elements crucial to the black metal played by the (more appropriately: several) bands of the so-called 2nd wave. I do acknowledge the apparent differences (and the developments Venom's music just couldn't have possibly made), but a song like "Countess Bathory" from the "Black Metal" album is, essentially, an early black metal song with obvious likeness to said bands of the 2nd wave; which warrants to refer to them as progenitors of contemporary black metal, just as it is done with Bathory (who took things a few steps further, but hey, that's progress for ya).

The concrete definitions of genres (of heavy metal music) primarily are ideal types that are not invariably able to adequately represent all bands pertaining to a specific spectrum of musical expression, their stereotyped character often enough inconclusive. If one considers, as holy ghost illustrated, Burzum and Blasphemy, one will find two bands which, ostensibly, greatly differ from each other, but which both are nonetheless commonly regarded as black metal (or, more specifically, representatives of different particular styles of black metal) - what is it, though, that makes both bands' music indubitably black metal? A shared musical texture, a style of musical arrangement or style of playing which they also, at least partially, share with Venom (well, Burzum probably moreso than Blasphemy).

Of course, Venom isn't "fully fledged black metal" by today's standards of what is commonly regarded as black metal - but black metal is, in my opinion, best suited with (and unasgrapable without) artistic leeway and licence, perhaps moreso than other genres of heavy metal. Call Venom black metal or not, I believe that the anlage, so to speak, for 2nd wave-style black metal is inherent to them, and if that's the coda for black metal, then Venom are black metal.


Last edited by Aszfargoth on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ADK



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dalen wrote:


Yes, and what's wrong with that?

At that point, HELLHAMMER actually already made the transition from Black to Death Metal - and as you should know, the title of the sampler was their idea.

Plus it is one of the first Metal artworks with explicit Splatter/Gore, a perfect example for a genre defining moment.

BTW: Does anyone know who that ominous "Freudstein" was who painted it?
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Piotr Sargnagel



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just call all Metal "Metal" and leave it at that? To most other people all these different genres we listen to just sound like a wall of noise anyway. This obsessive classification is stupid and only people into Metal seem to care Laughing
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Opolus



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 1048

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADK wrote:
Fuck all this revisionism.

Of course, Venom were the first BM band and invented music, imagery and all the rest belonging to it. I am not even discussing this.

But there's always this minority that pretends otherwise, because they are simply TOO GAY for Venom.

Wiser words were never spoken!! I can't believe this thread has that many pages already, seriously!! Anyone underestimating or underrating the impact VENOM had on Metal in general, let alone being the first BLACK METAL band...catch A.I.D.S. or suck on Perez Hilton's cock!!

P.S.
Yes, I couldn't even be arsed into checking any more comments after page 2, ffs!!
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nileppez



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Venom are pretty much second most important band in metal.
Yes, some of their stuff is great.
Nothing they recorded is black metal.
Not that it matters, makes them worse or anything, but it's a fact and this thread is dedicated to arguing about that.

Venom plays heavy/speed metal, because they sound similiar to other bands in the genre, although still quite unique. Slightly rawer maybe, but that's it.
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Mr_Belvedere



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:
Yes, Venom are pretty much second most important band in metal.
Yes, some of their stuff is great.
Nothing they recorded is black metal.
Not that it matters, makes them worse or anything, but it's a fact and this thread is dedicated to arguing about that.

Venom plays heavy/speed metal, because they sound similiar to other bands in the genre, although still quite unique. Slightly rawer maybe, but that's it.


Sums it up perfectly!
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NK7
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nileppez wrote:

Nothing they recorded is black metal

Black metal is by definition heavy metal music with satanic lyrics/aesthetics so Venom is certainly black metal. Now please get the fuck out of my scene.

EDIT: and before you come up with your predictable "SO IS INCANTATION/DEICIDE BM ALSO????" bullshit reply, the answer is yeah, lato sensu it's not too wrong to call satanic death metal bands "black metal" as well. That's how a band like Incantation would have probably been called if they had been around in 1984 or so. You know, the time when you weren't even a drop of sperm in your father's puberty dreams.
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Last edited by NK7 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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