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God Slayer



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 1322
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skoll wrote:
God Slayer wrote:
Skoll wrote:
Neither side can conclusively show the other side as wrong other than in theory and doctrine. Both sides look for answers that back their own claims too.

That's a false equivalency. One side is making a claim and the other is saying there is no evidence for that claim. The person making the claim is the one responsible for proving that claim, not the other way around. Therefore, the responsibility lies with the God-Beliver to prove in some way that their belief is rooted in some sort of fact.

Again, as Dawkins points out, you can make a claim about ANYTHING. I can say that there is a giraffe that speaks English and wears a tie and lives in outer space. Just because you can't DISPROVE my claim doesn't mean that both sides are on the same level. The probability of that giraffe's existence is so extremely low that it is safe to say that it most likely doesn't exist. The same kind of argument can be made for God.

But as you can see, just because neither side can "prove" an argument doesn't mean that they are on the same footing in any way, shape, or form.


Space is infinite though so who knows... Things can't really be proven or disproven on such a matter is all I'm saying, people shouldn't be so smug about things when they really know as little as everyone else. That's the only point I was making.

I feel like you and Demoniarch are confusing smugness/arrogance with factual argument. Nobody is saying that any opinion is better than another, or that atheists have 'all the answers' in any way. What we are saying is that it is a false equivalency to hold Blind Faith and Skepticism of it up on the same level. They are not the same and should not be treated as such. AND, to point that out isn't arrogance, it's just the truth.
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God Slayer



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FallenChrist wrote:
Skoll wrote:
Space is infinite though so who knows...


There is by no means universal agreement on this, nor do I see how it's relevant.

Skoll wrote:
Things can't really be proven or disproven on such a matter is all I'm saying, people shouldn't be so smug about things when they really know as little as everyone else. That's the only point I was making.


You can disprove any faith claim using really simple sentential calculus/propositional logic. How? Just posit the opposite faith claim and draw a contradiction from the two.

Excellent post.
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Skoll



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God Slayer wrote:

I feel like you and Demoniarch are confusing smugness/arrogance with factual argument. Nobody is saying that any opinion is better than another, or that atheists have 'all the answers' in any way. What we are saying is that it is a false equivalency to hold Blind Faith and Skepticism of it up on the same level. They are not the same and should not be treated as such. AND, to point that out isn't arrogance, it's just the truth.


Not arguing with this point, faith in anything outside of yourself is self-betrayal. Waiting and hoping on salvation and prosperity never leads to any real gains, it's all too passive and goes against man.

All I'm saying is that either way there is no real definitive conclusion that can be reached, everything is postulation and comes down to who thinks or is told what. I'm not supporting the idea of god by the way so don't take it as such.
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Heirophant.326.AV



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demoniarch wrote:
God Slayer wrote:
Demoniarch wrote:
Blind faith required for both sides.

Actually one requires blind faith and one is the opposite of blind faith -- evidential reasoning, where lack of evidence is an evidence against belief. As Richard Dawkins put it in The God Delusion, atheism is based on rationality and rationality alone. It's less about making the absolute claim that there is no god and more about making the claim that the probability of god or "a" god's existence is so minute, that one can say with a good degree of certitude that there is no god.

Or as Richard stated without paraphrase, "Why there almost certainly is no God".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html


This probablility or lack of evidence is all based on thinking that this god has to be some benevolent and participating-listening god concerned with mankinds individual lives. "If we do not see gods actions or feel gods presence visible in a mortals life then god does not exist"
A good argument for discussing the ridiculous claims by the established church.

Not a good argument for rationalizing if just some onipotent being exists. I fully agree that the probability of a god existing in the current contexts that religions would have us believe is nonsense, but I tend to think it quite possible some creature higher up an evolutionary scale exists on some level or plane that in comparison to us could be considered godlike. Does it care about us or concern itself with trite daily human activities... I am most certainly sure it does not as your statement suggests as well.


The reason for this is that most people dealing with these issues in such a public forum come from a Philosophy department within a university, and as such there is a particular way of dealing with the concept of "God" which is standard. Following on from Thomas Aquinas, the being they are talking about needs to be omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent - all 3 are regarded as necessary, and if you can disprove one the argument falls down.

Personally, I think there are several fairly sound arguments in support of a being with 2 of the 3 attributes - you just need to take out any moral component and it works ok. Then you're left with a sort of Deist god, who starts the universe up and then lets it do its own thing.

Anyway, the fact that Dwarkins is abrasive and has poor manners does not discount his arguments. I found his books a bit dull, but then I'd studied so much theology and religious philosophy by that point it was like preaching to the choir. I almost feel like what this viewpoint needs is writers more like Camus and less like Dwarkins though - you can influence people more with a poetic rendering of the argument that with a didactic diatribe I think.
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Kuravilu



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use this slide to show my pupils THE basic difference between Religiuos thinking and Scientific:


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Demoniarch



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IXTAB wrote:
Demoniarch wrote:
I tend to think it quite possible some creature higher up an evolutionary scale exists on some level or plane that in comparison to us could be considered godlike.


What could possibly lead you to believe this? How is this belief any more credible or rational that what any of the major organized religions believe?

The basic principle of evolutionary biology states that every organism evolves from a more basic organism. Thus this godlike creature you speak of would completely contradict this principle.


The fact we exist, and are a higher power say to the monkey.
It is no more credible, it just seems a logical possibility. The difference is the choice to worship and treat as absolute truth. I do neither, I just think of these things and maintain an open eye and mind for evidence.

In enough time, evolution could raise all life forms to a point of godlike existence if compared to newer life forms just starting out. One has to think and believe in some form of infinity to appreaciate this though, if all you think exists is the here and now and we are the peak of evolution within the universe then so be it, nothing wrong with that... I just tend to think differently. There is somewhat some proof on earth something more than us exists, however that is another argument and question as to beleif or not.
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Demoniarch



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FallenChrist wrote:
Demoniarch wrote:
Not a good argument for rationalizing if just some onipotent being exists. I fully agree that the probability of a god existing in the current contexts that religions would have us believe is nonsense, but I tend to think it quite possible some creature higher up an evolutionary scale exists on some level or plane that in comparison to us could be considered godlike. Does it care about us or concern itself with trite daily human activities... I am most certainly sure it does not as your statement suggests as well.


Huh? The idea that there exists some higher power, however absent, is nothing more than a faith claim. What evidentiary support do you have for thinking this? More importantly, what questions are answered by positing the existence of some non-involved deity? Even if we accept your theory, it brings us no closer to answering questions about our origins/existence/etc., so I don't see the point of even considering something like this.


Dude, all I can post is my opinion, if I had some proof or solid evidence the NWN forums would not be the 1st place I would take it or the place where I would be discussing it.
Questions will never be answered, cause no answer is ever completely satisfactory to everyone. The existence of a non-involved deity is just more realistic to me considering the lack of participation the biblical 'god' has taken in mankinds current existence, on any plainly visible level anyways.
The point of considering it, to me anyways... is imagination and pure interest in the subject. It offers no more answers than any other path, however I feel the need for questions and wonder than just passing straight into an athiest type thought process where there is nothing. That to me is highly boring and for some reason unexplainable except for perhaps wishful thinking but I tend to think as life and death as phases and there could be many of them. Why ? Who knows. I guess I just really think it's a very advanced form of evolution and could lead us to being the individual that we currently are trying to figure out as 'what is god' ?
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Demoniarch



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I really know is that if people just resorted to being fine with what's proven and in hand, there would be no drive to figure anything out, fire would be collected still from lightning strikes, and caves would possibly still be home. ...or without some ambition or spark of soul from a god we may never have climbed out of the primordial soup to even begin a path down evolution to wherever this is all leading ?
Or maybe it is all a cosmic accident, all somehow order within chaos. No direction, no point... just whatever we make of it.

The ambition to figure this all out, the whole god aspect of existence and evolution seems to be a damn good push to make mankind think and pursue truth. Wether it's to prove or disprove it's existence.
The shitty roadblocks the stop the journey are establishments that claim to know gods rules and demands, and desires.

All I know is that I will never 100% make up my mind completely until my mind is oblitterated from existece completely and I never existed, and since death is a relatively unknown transformation of where your mind or thoughts may go, I'll tend to keep a slightly open and prepared mind for whatever the next stage may bring incase it is something interesting.

What proof I have of that ? None. Wouldn't even try to. It's just interesting subject matter to discuss. ...for some anyways, others just tend to get mad or agitated when they don't quite follow the mindset. Laughing
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Skoll



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day only Crom is real.
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Demoniarch



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skoll wrote:
At the end of the day only Crom is real.


Aye... that and the riddle of steel. Razz
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God Slayer



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, the chances of an intact mind after death are slim. Consciousness is a very fragile thing. So fragile, in fact, that it can be disrupted and obliterated by relatively small electrical and chemical changes in the brain. A hit to the head can cause complete loss of consciousness and/or permanent brain damage, from which one shall never return. With the brain's sentience being so fragile, I can't fathom a way in which something a trillion times more destructive (death/dying/decomposing) could see a preserved consciousness, when a baseball to the noggin can erase memories or turn you into a vegetable.

In other words, the chances of the existence of a corporeal soul or post-death consciousness are pretty slim. Most likely, the energy that makes up your body and mind is simply scattered into the earth via the nitrogen cycle and basic decomposition. You cease to exist in all aspects, save for the fact that your energy now helps power other gene machines (plants/animals/bacteria/viruses/etc). Your consciousness... gone forever.

Check out Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" for some really good insight into the mind, self-awareness/consciousness, and what happens during brain death.
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Demoniarch



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God Slayer wrote:
Sadly, the chances of an intact mind after death are slim. Consciousness is a very fragile thing. So fragile, in fact, that it can be disrupted and obliterated by relatively small electrical and chemical changes in the brain. A hit to the head can cause complete loss of consciousness and/or permanent brain damage, from which one shall never return. With the brain's sentience being so fragile, I can't fathom a way in which something a trillion times more destructive (death/dying/decomposing) could see a preserved consciousness, when a baseball to the noggin can erase memories or turn you into a vegetable.

In other words, the chances of the existence of a corporeal soul or post-death consciousness are pretty slim. Most likely, the energy that makes up your body and mind is simply scattered into the earth via the nitrogen cycle and basic decomposition. You cease to exist in all aspects, save for the fact that your energy now helps power other gene machines (plants/animals/bacteria/viruses/etc). Your consciousness... gone forever.

Check out Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" for some really good insight into the mind, self-awareness/consciousness, and what happens during brain death.


Good point. But that's why you run a back up file saved with jesus. Very Happy
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IXTAB
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Failsafe - cannot be recalled
Flee to nowhere - death consumes all
Return to the earth from which you crawled
Return to darkness - return to dust"
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God Slayer



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sieg Heil Jesus Christ! Wink
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FallenChrist



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demoniarch wrote:
FallenChrist wrote:
Demoniarch wrote:
Not a good argument for rationalizing if just some onipotent being exists. I fully agree that the probability of a god existing in the current contexts that religions would have us believe is nonsense, but I tend to think it quite possible some creature higher up an evolutionary scale exists on some level or plane that in comparison to us could be considered godlike. Does it care about us or concern itself with trite daily human activities... I am most certainly sure it does not as your statement suggests as well.


Huh? The idea that there exists some higher power, however absent, is nothing more than a faith claim. What evidentiary support do you have for thinking this? More importantly, what questions are answered by positing the existence of some non-involved deity? Even if we accept your theory, it brings us no closer to answering questions about our origins/existence/etc., so I don't see the point of even considering something like this.


Dude, all I can post is my opinion, if I had some proof or solid evidence the NWN forums would not be the 1st place I would take it or the place where I would be discussing it.
Questions will never be answered, cause no answer is ever completely satisfactory to everyone. The existence of a non-involved deity is just more realistic to me considering the lack of participation the biblical 'god' has taken in mankinds current existence, on any plainly visible level anyways.
The point of considering it, to me anyways... is imagination and pure interest in the subject. It offers no more answers than any other path, however I feel the need for questions and wonder than just passing straight into an athiest type thought process where there is nothing. That to me is highly boring and for some reason unexplainable except for perhaps wishful thinking but I tend to think as life and death as phases and there could be many of them. Why ? Who knows. I guess I just really think it's a very advanced form of evolution and could lead us to being the individual that we currently are trying to figure out as 'what is god' ?


Understood, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I pretty sure I speak for God Slayer too in saying that neither of us deny the possibility of a God, so we're not closing ourselves off to new knowledge or anything like that. All I am arguing against is the idea of faith. Really though, I couldn't care less what people believe as long as they are united against organized religion.
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